FOR AMERICANS ONLY-- NO FOREIGNERS!

[Steadfast Sam]

HAPPY INDEPENDENCE EVERYBODY! Let's start the celebration a day early. (nd everyone keep a weather eye out for those pesky brits and their #@!$ tea) :lol

[Byrhthelm]

Did you guys ever find a fortune teller that reads harbours? :lol

[Steadfast Sam]

Yes; Our lifeline was long, but our love line was broken, which mean we'll find our true love early, but lose her.

[X Rogue]

:lol

[Ditz]

*celebrates the day England finally dumped America* phew...we're not associated with them anymore. :p

[X Rogue]

Tony Blair may feel differently. :p

[Nenuial]

*lights a sparkler bomb and heads for the hills*

[Poguemahone]

Jeez you Americans, way too patriotic. Guys showing their beer bellies with the flag painted on it, SICK.

[Ithildiniel]

What? It's... oh. That's why all the anthems and Sousa music is being played. Right. I'll stay away from the public places for a few days.

Incidentally, it was Canada Day on Friday. My Canadian friends seemed pretty patriotic about that too. Although none of them seem to know the words to their own national anthem.

[Poguemahone]

I know it in french and in english. HAHA

[Lothíriel]

Independence day! It just happens to be one of my favorite days out of the year seeing as how it's the "birthday" of my country and my own birthday. I am patriotic and proud of it!

[Ithildiniel]

I know it in french and in english. HAHA

Don't they keep changing the English lyrics though? That was my friend's excuse for not knowing it. :lol

[Arathorn III]

They haven't changed it in my lifetime, as far as I know. It's one of the simplest anthems, and your friends should really know it. ;)

Anyway, happy Independance Day to all you (fellow) Americans! :)

[Ithildiniel]

Well, to be fair, my friends are at least 15 years older than yourself, so there's always the possibility. ;)

[Prince Dol Amroth]

Happy Independence Day, Ameirca.
and Ditz, we thank y'all for finally ridding yourself of us pesky colonists! :biggrin

and a belated, "O Canada" to my kin folk up north, since i do share some Canadian bloodlines, proudly at that!

[Arathorn III]

Thank you, PDA! :D

I'm actually a dual-citizen, so I get the best of both worlds. ;)

[Poguemahone]

I am not a dual citizen, but tracing my ancestry, I am half loyalist. My moms side of the family were loyalists when the US wanted to break free from the British.

[Steadfast Sam]

In other words, your mom's side were LOSERS! :lol HAPPY B-DAY USA!

[Baseloaf]

I thought Independence Day was a movie. Oh well.. *shoots some fireworks* Oh, sorry Ithie, was that your laundry? *looks at pile of smoking things*

[siskoeva]

well guys...nothing like rain through the night, through the day, and again, through the night to put a hamper on firework festivities...I'm ok with it though, I don't shoot off fireworks, nor do I really celebrate the fourth with anything other than maybe a movie with some friends and a steak or something. what will you all (americans) be doing for the fourth? besides shooting off fireworks.

[Ditz]

I'll be being pleased I'm neither American nor Patriotic.

[Poguemahone]

In other words, your mom's side were LOSERS! :lol HAPPY B-DAY USA!

Thanks a lot there Sam, very supportive of me.

[Theodred]

Last night I went to the town Carnival and saw fireworks. Today I got out of scraping the deck by mowing the lawn. :p

Happy 4th of July!

[FlamingoSoHotRightNow]

I've already got a headache, I don't know if I'll be able to stand this fireworks business...

[Realbumpbert]

I'm glad it's the 4th of July, but only because it means I don't have to go to work today.

[Ithildiniel]

I thought Independence Day was a movie. Oh well.. *shoots some fireworks* Oh, sorry Ithie, was that your laundry? *looks at pile of smoking things*

Man... Can't trust you with flammable things, can I? :P

[Aragil]

How were loyalists losers? Maybe we felt that Americans were alittle mean when they tarred and feathered us. I'm half loyalist, half Quebecer myself..

[Poguemahone]

Thats two for the cause.

[Ithildiniel]

Honestly, I think the loyalist thing is moot now. None of us were there, and our perspectives on it are coloured by the lives we have lived.

I mean, come on. It was something special for a woman to show her ankles then. :p

[Prince Dol Amroth]

Ditz, is there something wrong with being patriotic? I think I know why you think being American is a bad thing, but what is wrong with being proud of the land where you live, wherever that may be?

[Prince Dol Amroth]

After an enjoyable afternoon and evening at a friends house on the 4th, I drove back to my city. As I approached the city, I saw the random and sporadic fireworks shot off from people's houses and small businesses, and I was struck by the thought that at that very moment, in Afghanistan and Iraq, service men and women were facing the very thing that these fireworks displays were a poor representation of, artillary, bombs and gunfire. Unless we have someone dear to us in the military, I think we forget about those men and women who have made the choice to answer their country's call for soldiers. I said thank you, and then said a prayer for them all. Whether you agree or disagree with the current conflicts, I think we can all agree to say thanks and give respect to these brave men and women.

[Baseloaf]

Hehe, sorry Ditz, but you turn rabid as soon as anyone criticizes your country :p

[Aragil]

I agree.. Sure, I'll defend Canada, but who cares if people thought our hockey was dead...we sure showed them a thing or two.

[Ithildiniel]

I agree.. Sure, I'll defend Canada, but who cares if people thought our hockey was dead...we sure showed them a thing or two.

Is hockey coming back this year? I remember something about the season being cancelled before.

[Arathorn III]

Supposedly they are about to reach a deal. Yes, there was a lock out. I'm fed up with it all. I'm no longer on the side of either the players or the owners - I'm with all the disgruntled fans. And I found I didn't miss it as much as I thought I would. Forgot about it, more like.

[Poguemahone]

Hockey, whats that?

^^^ sounds odd for a canadian right, but like Bere, I had also forgotten about it.

[Arathorn III]

The playoffs would have ended a month ago. Heh.

[Poguemahone]

And Ottawa would have won the cup.

[FlamingoSoHotRightNow]

Hey... I thought this was an American thing...

This is almost as bad as us girls taking over the "just for the guys" thread with our hair dying talk. :)

[silverfox]

Back to topic, At least someone was strong enough to get rid of the English, We've been trying since what was it? 1606 or 1707? We have pritty much decided we have to live with them. If someone started a revolt most of Scotland would probably follow, Still GO AMERICA for getting free.

[Ditz]

Ditz, is there something wrong with being patriotic? I think I know why you think being American is a bad thing, but what is wrong with being proud of the land where you live, wherever that may be?

Being patriotic is silly. I only said I was glad I wasn't American because I won't have to put up with blatent patriotism everywhere. I just consider it as a naive attitude. I hate it when anyone gets patriotic. People are all very similar. Countries are all very similar. Patriotism leads to war, ethnocentrism, discrimination and hate between nations. Look at the first world war.

Hehe, sorry Ditz, but you turn rabid as soon as anyone criticizes your country

Only when you get it wrong. Your problem is you don't let points drop when you should. At least us British know when to let things go.

;)


(last bit was a joke BTW)

[silverfox]

I have to agree with you on the first bit Ditz, but not really on the second. But the two conflict sort of.

[Prince Dol Amroth]

Ditz, you are correct that patriotism taken to extreme, like any other thing, does lead to negative things. Being proud of your country, or proud of the accomplishments of one's country is a good thing, I think. I would say that I am patriotic, but that does not translate into me thinking that other countries are bad, or other cultures are inferior. My patriotism is pride in the good things that my country does. Of course, I am not blind to my country's flaws, as a matter of fact, I think that true patriotic people look for the flaws in their country and work toward correcting them.

[FlamingoSoHotRightNow]

I agree, truely patriotic people look at the bad in their country as well as the good. I suppose I should clairify this... as they look at the bad, they also think of how it could be made better. It shouldn't be criticism for the sake of complaining about something.

[Ditz]

It shouldn't be criticism for the sake of complaining about something.

You obviously don't know me at all, so please don't make nasty assumptions.

I'm just cynical because of the way most patriotism does turn into being a thing about "our country is better than yours" Look at Cromwell in Ireland. THe Crusades. THe first and secon world wars. In the first world war patriotism caused 150,000 15, 16 and 17 year old boys to get killed when they weren't even supposed to fight. Read All Quiet on the Western Front or something by Vera Brittain to see some reasons why I'm not fond of patriotism. You should see me round St Georges day. I'm always telling people off for going "England rocks" indiscriminantly. We invented concentration camps, we've killed thousands. We have a painting of Cromwell in the houses of parliment.

[Lothíriel]

Ditz,
I am a history buff and still patriotic in my country. Do I deny that we were involved in slavery or put the Japanese in internment camps or that I live in a state that participated in the Jim Crow laws and lynched blacks for no reason? No. Because every country has its less than good past.
I do not take pride in my country...to me that is not being patriotic. Having pride in a country is how one would lead to what you are talking about...ethnocentrism, thinking that one country is better than another.

I think of being patriotic as being thankful for the country that I am in, thankful that I am an American citizen. I am an American, born and bred, and I am thankful for that because of all the opportunities it has afforded me as a third/fourth generation American (recent immigrants in my past), as a woman, and religiously.

Am I patriotic? Most definitely. Do I think that America is better than any other country? Certainly not. There are times that I bemoan the state of my country, namely the ignorance that is extremely prevelent. While I respect your views of patriotism and am in no way trying to convince you otherwise, I respectfully disagree. I say that just because someone is patriotic does not mean that they are silly or prideful or are looking down on another country thinking that they are better than them.

In a lighter note...some neighbors decided to shoot off the biggest fireworks one can buy for home use on July 5th, the day after the fourth...lol

[FlamingoSoHotRightNow]

Sorry Ditz, I didn't mean to offend you.

[Ditz]

I am a history buff and still patriotic in my country.

I never said the two were mutually exclusive. I was just stating why I personally dislike patriotism. I didn't expect people to attack me from all sides. People asked, I explained. I wish people didn't see opinions as bad things these days. Things which if they're not the same as your own need to be attacked.

[Ithildiniel]

I wish people didn't see opinions as bad things these days. Things which if they're not the same as your own need to be attacked.

I don't think it's so much that having a differing opinion makes people feel the need to attack, so much as defend their own opinion. As though by thinking differently than them, you (general 'you') might be attacking their opinion. People are defensive, because honestly Americans (the ones who aren't jingoistic followers) are sick of being lumped in with flag-waving "git er done" dorks. And there are a lot of people in Europe and Australia and Asia who seem to have a hard time telling the difference between a country's political leaders and its populace.

So, I'd meant to be brief, but I think it's just that a lot of people are getting tired of feeling like they are being attacked, and it makes them jump to that conclusion faster than it should.

[Ditz]

I never attacked anyone. I just said I was glad I wasn't patriotic (and american at that point in time due to the patriotism surrounding me) and people attacked me. I NEVER specifically attack Americans. If there are Americans in a debate with me then I'll bring up points about their country because it's where they live. If I was in a debate with someone from Russia or Sirea I'd bring up points about THEIR country. I'm sick to death of constantly being ripped to bits by people just because I have opinions of my own.

[Steadfast Sam]

I don't think people are neccessarily attacking you, ditz. That's the problem with tpying as a opposed to actually talking to someone. You can't tell what their tone is, so sometimes you can misinterpret what someone is saying and take it more personally than they meant. Try to bear that in mind and don't get too upset by what people say. When you're having a debate with people, its important to keep a thick skin and not take offence at what other people say. You don't have to agree with them, but they are intitled to an opinion too. There's always a point when you have to sigh and shake your head and agree to disagree.

[Ditz]

Wow Sam, thanks for being patronising on top of saying that I don't know how to debate well. Cheers.

[Ithildiniel]

Re-read what I said, Ditz:
it's just that a lot of people are getting tired of feeling like they are being attacked, and it makes them jump to that conclusion faster than it should.

Feeling like they're being attacked and actually being attacked, I'm sure you realise, are two different things. Semantics, yes, but since we're in a text-based medium, you have to drawn conclusions from something.

You also keep reiterating that you're being attacked, when in fact, there is no attack being mounted upon you. When someone asks - yes, asks - what's wrong with being patriotic, or however it was phrased (it *was* a question), that's not an atttack. That's an honest question. That's also why you're being perceived - at least from where I'm standing - as being defensive. And what people are trying to do, perhaps not successfully, is suggest that defensiveness isn't necessary.

So, in short, no one is attacking you (that i can see) and no one else is being attacked.

[Ditz]

They asked, I answered. That was fine. Then I had people telling me I was wrong and explaining exactly how wrong I was and why, and getting all defensive, and saying I was doing it for the sake of complaining. In fact I didn't complain at all.

[Prince Dol Amroth]

We can end this debate or we can move it to Amon Lhaw where debates are the main course. I will see what occurs after this post, but first I want to clarify a few things.

Ditz,
1). The comment about "complaining for complaining sake" was not directed at you. If you read Flaming's post, he was talking about people being patriotic and looking critically at their own country. He was saying that he thinks that people should look at the bad in their own country, just not be complaining to be complaining. The comment was not directed at your statements about patriotism.

2). I have loked at the posts back to where the talk was briefly about Canada and hockey. No one attacked you. I asked you to express why you were glad not to be patriotic becasue I was genuinely interested in your opinion.

The next post was from silverfox who was ageeing with you for the most part.

I then responded to your answer by giving you my definition of patriotism, which differs from yours, but my post was in no way an attack on you, just healthy discussiion on differing opinions.

Flaming then commented, responding to my comment about examining one's own country for its flaws adding the part about people not complaining about ther own country for complaining sake. His post, as I mentioned earlier, was not directed toward you,

Lothiriel chimed in with her opinion, being extremely careful to respect your differing opinion, and explicitly saying that.

Ithilidiel attempted to explain her idea of why people respond to differing opinions( I tend to disagree a bit with her assessment, but that is for another post). Her basic point was that when people encounter opinions different from their own, they feel "attacked" and feel the need to respond. She was talking about why people might comment on your differerring opinion. She was not attacking you or your right to express a differing opinion.

You and I will have to disagree on whether Sam was being patronizing or not, but I didn't see a attack there.

I believe I have summed up the relevant posts and I did not see anyone attacking you. If I missed something, please point it out, as I want discussions to be pleasant and enjoyable and personally attacking someone for holding an opposing view is unacceptable to me.

You mentioned that patriotism is "silly and "naive". Would you consider that an attack on those who choose to be patriotic? I don't, but some might feel that way. If I said that a position that you held was silly and naive, would you feel that I was attacking you?

I post this publicaly because I want everyone to participate in discussions and debates and I want us to be friends who find occasions to disagree. If one of us feels threatened or mistreated, we all should be aware and work to correct it.

[Ditz]

If one of us feels threatened or mistreated, we all should be aware and work to correct it.

Why? It doesn't work. Look at the Balin, Barahir thing. It ended up being stupid.

I do feel I'm often attacked on this baord. Not as if people write nasty posts, but as if my views are questioned more than they would be if I was, say, a patriotic American christian. I hate the fact that if I express an opinion I will instantly have 20 people arguing against it. Wheras if I'd said "Yay, I love being an American, America's great." It would have been fine. I don't care anymore, you're not going to see it from my point of view at all, and even if you did no-one would do anything to change it. Just forget it.

[Prince Dol Amroth]

Ditz, I am sorry you feel that way, but I do not think you are beng completely fair. If you were a gung-ho, America is the greatest nation on earth, and Christians are the best, kind of person, you would get debates from me on that too. Obviously, if you are in a group where the majority believe one way and you express a different opinion, people will address your position. For the most part those contesting your differing opinion have been polite and rational. I go into other boards and political chat rooms and I am the odd man out. People disagree with me vehemantly in some of those places, but I enjoy the excercise, and of course I am open to change if I can see the need to change. Over the years I have changed and altered my positions on a number of things. Also, you have had folks agree with your positions, or part of your positions in here, I am one of them. You and I disgagree on many things, but I listen to what you present and I do follow-up research because you have sparked a interest. We are closer on many issues than you think.

I guess the biggest disappointment for me is that you actually believe I wont do anything, or that others on here won't do anything. Sure some wont but even in the Bailn, Barahir issue, actions were being taken to resolve the problem. I could ony do so much when neither of the parties pursued it after I offered my help.

I enjoy your presence here and i especially enjoy hearing your opinons and I enjoy placing my opinions that disagree next to yours and seeig what the differences are and examining to see if what I believe is actually true. I hope you dont quit expressing yourself, our board would be the worse for that.

[Ditz]

I know I'm not being totally fair. I don't see why I have to be totally fair all the time though.

I believe that you won't do anything because you believe that this is all in my head and people aren't actually more likely to question my opinions than other peoples. Who knows you might be right, this could easily be me being overly sensitive, or attention seeking, or whatever you want to call it.

I don't know whether I'll stop expressing myself or not. Probably not, but well...I never particularly feel encouraged, except by you. If anything I feel that a lot of the time people would rather I just shut-up. I'm not sure if I should express myself if I feel as if I don't want to read a thread because I just know 50 people will have picked my opinion apart.

[Prince Dol Amroth]

This is not all in your head. You often express opinions that are different from many on this board. When you do that, others express thiers and often try to get you to see things their way,some even are trying to get you to change your opininon. I am completely aware of this. I know that it can be wearisome to constantly have people trying to change your mind, I get that alot in many places I post. One of the things I have enjoyed about you being here is that you don't hesititate to share what you think, even when you know that many will disagree. It is refreshing to see someone, esp. a young person, willing to express opinions that are not part of the majority. I encourage my own children to express their opinions and beliefs even if they are not popular. We should express what we think or believe, listen to what others have to say, re-examine what we think in light of what they have expressed and then move on. Sometimes someone we disagree with will provide a bit of information that makes us rrealize that part of our opinion is flawed and we need to change it, other times we ar just reassured that our opinion is the right one.

You don't have to be totally fair all the time, that is just one of my little quirks, I try to be fair as much of the time as I can, and sometimes I try to get others to be like me in that. It is not a necessitiy, just me.

[Baseloaf]

Sorry to go off topic, but here´s a patriotic song I like. The discussion here made me think of it. :)

I was raised in a smalltown just a little German boy
I didn't care about history I just cared about my toys

I never felt responsible for what happened in a war
but they made me feeling guilty even though I wasn't born

I remember I was 18 when I heard the Army call
and I learned a lot about killing man and drinkin' alcohol

It was like a game of cowboys the good against the bad
the others were the good guys I was German - I was bad

Ain't nothing wrong to love your home
like anyboy in the world
Yesterday's gone and we belong
to a new generation singin' this song

I said hey
I wanna be proud of my country
proud of it's people
proud to be free
I said hey
I wanna be proud of my country
proud I was born here
proud of Germany

Well, I made this trip to Vegas with a friend of mine
some people heard we're German and they called us "Nazi swines"

Do you think it's fair to blame me for the things I haven't done
so tell me how long will this be going on

I wanna know if you don't know
that you're hurting me and my country
Yesterday's gone and we belong
to a new german nation who has found it's home

I said hey
I wanna be proud of my country
proud of it's people
proud to be free
I said hey
I wanna be proud of my country
proud I was born here
proud to live in Germany

[Prince Dol Amroth]

Very enlightening song!

[Baseloaf]

A damn good one too:)